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Thread: Trench Wars Pub & Zone REVITALIZATION - Need your feedback

  1. #81
    zeebu 'DUMPTRUCK' johnson Zeebu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leland View Post
    here's another idea GET RID OF ALL THE SPECTATORS .

    if you dont play gtfo
    imwatchingyou


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  2. #82
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessup View Post
    A quick /!fruitstats and you will see why slots are known as one armed bandits :P I will play but only short spats in hopes of a nice win.
    You can see that the percentage won by the house is now a lot smaller, but interestingly, now that the odds are significantly better, people seem to play much more, so that the overall amount lost is actually larger (even if the ratio of wins to losses is more narrow than ever).

    I played fatrolls and sawyers poker arena in EG the other day. Looked good! Would love to see that added to twpubsystems casino and have a table installed in corner of pub map. It's currently installed in EG. I thought it was pretty cool as you turn and fire your ship different directions to bet, call, fold or raise. If it can't be put in pub let's add a Trench Wars casino arena!
    It's a pretty cool bot, and we actually have it in TW as well. There are a few issues with it, though. The biggest is that it doesn't follow the rules of poker all that well. For example, after the final player calls, it still goes to the next player, so that you can still raise afterward. It's very strange. There's also only very limited tournament support, meaning they're cash games, and you're playing with all your money. Couple that with the lack of ability to enter your bet numerically, the fact that the ship rotation controls bet without actually telling you how much you're betting, and that you can easily go all in accidentally with every single spacedollar you possess and it becomes basically unusable. It could certainly be updated by someone who wants to take it on, though. Any Java coders out there who also like poker?
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
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  3. #83
    MORE COWBELL! Kontrolz's Avatar
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    What's the point of all these changes if people just sign in, enter a ship on a public team, and then go afk?

    Get the basics right first.

    This game has a crippling afk problem. It didn't used to matter if half a team was afk for 30 minutes because there were multiple pub arenas and sub-arenas running. Instead of exiting the client and doing something else people would just change arenas. Now there is 1 arena running 99.9% of the time so when the afkers kill the action people just exit the client.

    If the goal is to have a high population you are going to have to reconsider the public arena's "chill" status and think about making it more of an automated game that handles afkers automatically along with team-balance issues (like most modern games). The people who log in and do nothing will continue to do so no matter what you change. However, the people who want to actually play the game with intense flag fights and teamwork do not stick around when it's dead. The primary focus should be keeping the players who base in the arena.

    A dream scenario would be no private teams, no levs, and automated games that spec afkers and auto-shuffleteams after X amount of rounds. I know this won't ever happen though because the people in charge would rather watch the zone die than dare touch lev/private team settings for fear of getting yelled at.

    If you want to be stubborn and insist that pub is about everyone doing their own thing then watch your small population get spread even thinner until all that's left are the afkers and the bobrs, just don't pretend it wasn't avoidable.
    (ZaBuZa)>sigh.. i been playing this game since i was 8... i am more mature then ull ever be...

  4. #84
    Registered User olde's Avatar
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    I love qan! Fine work you do sir much appreciated! I'll have cres send nudes xD

  5. #85
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrolz
    If the goal is to have a high population you are going to have to reconsider the public arena's "chill" status and think about making it more of an automated game that handles afkers automatically along with team-balance issues (like most modern games). The people who log in and do nothing will continue to do so no matter what you change. However, the people who want to actually play the game with intense flag fights and teamwork do not stick around when it's dead. The primary focus should be keeping the players who base in the arena.

    A dream scenario would be no private teams, no levs, and automated games that spec afkers and auto-shuffleteams after X amount of rounds. I know this won't ever happen though because the people in charge would rather watch the zone die than dare touch lev/private team settings for fear of getting yelled at.

    If you want to be stubborn and insist that pub is about everyone doing their own thing then watch your small population get spread even thinner until all that's left are the afkers and the bobrs, just don't pretend it wasn't avoidable.
    It might seem like those kinds of changes would lead to a higher population. But the thing is, the game has, after so many years, taken on a very definite tone. Pub is pub is pub. For better or worse. It's highly resistant to tampering, from what I've seen.

    Here's a good example of what I mean. Even when we've allowed shuffle voting, after some time we had to disable it, because most of the time, it caused around 30-40% of the arena to spec (usually most of the freq that was winning before the shuffle). TW players are very resistant to being messed with, after being left alone for so long. They have an expectation of what the game is, and play it because it offers something familiar and comforting in a world that is constantly changing. The fact that TW doesn't really change much is perhaps its greatest weakness, but also its greatest strength.

    Only a few serious basers play pub anymore. Many people on these forums consider playing pub as something contemptible, utterly beneath them. (I don't have much respect for these people, you might be able to guess.) New players don't have much of an example to look up to. We could try to turn it essentially into a loose-form ?go base game (that's been the general push ever since the timer was introduced ages ago), but at this point we've come too far with the model we have. I don't think it would be just "backlash" but actually a significantly reduced number of players. What you describe might be your dream scenario for pub, but it's not for a lot of people who play. Your assumption is that those people would continue to play if we went toward a more rigid style. From what I've seen over the years, this really just isn't the case. Yes, basing is arguably the core of TW pub. But forcing it to happen is like trying to coerce a group of cats into have a tea party.

    One compromise has been to allow people to !buy special modes, such as purepub. In exchange for "participation points" (spacedollars), players are given ability to affect how the game is played for a short time. Could maybe make a !buy to disallow private freqs as well, other than during duels.

    One thing I can definitely look at is tightening up AFK checks a bit more, though.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
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  6. #86
    MORE COWBELL! Kontrolz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qan View Post
    Here's a good example of what I mean. Even when we've allowed shuffle voting, after some time we had to disable it, because most of the time, it caused around 30-40% of the arena to spec (usually most of the freq that was winning before the shuffle). TW players are very resistant to being messed with, after being left alone for so long. They have an expectation of what the game is, and play it because it offers something familiar and comforting in a world that is constantly changing. The fact that TW doesn't really change much is perhaps its greatest weakness, but also its greatest strength.
    When teams get so uneven that shufflevote is needed (and voted for) teams crash like that anyway. Whether you force shuffle them or wait the extra round that it takes for the only team basing to get bored and leave. I feel that isn't a very good example and that your point is incorrect. The people that are left (in pub) are the ones that CAN'T quit, or they would have by now. In fact, I remember this argument of "we can't change pub or people will leave" being the exact argument that was brought up when we tried to lobby for timed games in pub, and even pub bux.

    Also, the people that think "pub is pub is pub" and don't want anything changed so they can continue to lev and tk, or afk on public teams, or just troll in general are the very people that you don't want around anyway. They are the ones who don't care if 20 people are playing or 4 people are playing because it's all the same to them. They make the "serious basers" leave with their tking and general uselessness.


    Quote Originally Posted by qan
    One thing I can definitely look at is tightening up AFK checks a bit more, though.
    Honestly, if that's all that comes out of my post I would be happy. This is probably the biggest, most glaring problem atm. I know you are basically the only person that's capable/willing to do things like this anymore so the fact that you even spend time on the forums and bother replying is something I don't take for granted. I really wish you would try to look at pub from a fresh perspective though.




    Typically, when the game crashes it's because basing just died. We need to find ways to stop basing from dying, whatever that is. I think we all agree on that. So what kills basing and how do we stop it? Uneven teams and afkers are the biggest culprits. We can crack down on afkers but how to crack down on keeping teams even without mandating shuffle after X amount of consecutive wins by one team?
    (ZaBuZa)>sigh.. i been playing this game since i was 8... i am more mature then ull ever be...

  7. #87
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kontrolz View Post
    When teams get so uneven that shufflevote is needed (and voted for) teams crash like that anyway. Whether you force shuffle them or wait the extra round that it takes for the only team basing to get bored and leave. I feel that isn't a very good example and that your point is incorrect. The people that are left (in pub) are the ones that CAN'T quit, or they would have by now. In fact, I remember this argument of "we can't change pub or people will leave" being the exact argument that was brought up when we tried to lobby for timed games in pub, and even pub bux.

    Also, the people that think "pub is pub is pub" and don't want anything changed so they can continue to lev and tk, or afk on public teams, or just troll in general are the very people that you don't want around anyway. They are the ones who don't care if 20 people are playing or 4 people are playing because it's all the same to them. They make the "serious basers" leave with their tking and general uselessness.
    I understand your frustration, and agree that basing is central to pub, but at the same time, I don't agree that everything else should be subverted to it. That's just my personal philosophy. One of the things I've always loved about pub is its freedom. If people want to have WB duels at south safe or just spawnkill, they should be able to do it without getting criticized for it, because there's literally nothing wrong with it. Sure, if that guy wasn't in his solo Lev, slowly coming up a side tube to lob an ineffective bomb at cram and TK a couple of people, maybe your team would be better off. (And making a few TKs beyond the occasional, accidental ones is against the rules.) But it's this chaos and ability to "make your own game" that's made TW pub a sort of legendary relic of gaming, rarely seen in games anymore -- especially action games.

    If it means that sometimes "serious basers" can't get a game going because of this, I still believe that unfortunately, that's the price that must be paid. We could force round-start warps, disable private frequencies, disable Levis, disable weasels and anything else that "serious basers" have a problem with. We could just force people into Terr, Shark or Spider, too, because any other ship is arguably a bit of a drain on serious basing. We could disable buys because they're too disruptive. Etc., etc. But all that saps some of the joy out of pub, and adds a level of responsibility that I don't think everyone wants. Some people, but not all. Perhaps this is why a lot of people don't take pub seriously -- but there's nothing to take seriously, as pub isn't about anything, including basing. There is no goal to it. It's one thing I've always loved about it. And I think it's one of the things that make TW so accessible to new players. We should talk about ways we can improve play for everyone, but I don't think the way to do that is by further restricting play in one of the few places that has succeeded because it doesn't insist on doing so.

    We need to find ways to stop basing from dying, whatever that is. I think we all agree on that. So what kills basing and how do we stop it? Uneven teams and afkers are the biggest culprits. We can crack down on afkers but how to crack down on keeping teams even without mandating shuffle after X amount of consecutive wins by one team?
    I reduced deaths without firing leading to a disconnect to 5 from 8, and I'm experimentally adding !afkcheck for players (2 people need to !afkcheck and then it should send a challenge code to the person). Also increased the reward for !switch to $1400 from $750, maybe enough to get people interested. Unfortunately it's extremely hard to balance teams in terms of "most of freq 0 wants to base, and freq 1 is spawnkilling/pubdueling/has 2 Levis/has a Weasel in the maze/has a Shark mining tube". It's hard to fix that. In terms of raw numbers being imbalanced, we can work with that. For example, if !switch isn't offered enough it has some parameters that can be tweaked.

    As for just keeping basing going, tried a lot of things over the years, little things. Most recently, these have included: terr bonus for a single terr on a public freq. Ship suggestions at the end of the round, if Terr/Shark is missing. Ability for players on a team to sponsor a terr or sponsor a shark, giving them $X at regular intervals, to let them buy items and to show your appreciation. As for annoying TKers, the increase to $500 for a TK hasn't worked miracles, but it definitely seems to keep people from firing aimlessly, especially Levis, while still allowing them to be reported for it. The ideal methods (IMO) create incentives for desired behavior, and deincentivize things that are seen as not contributing to the health of pub. Rather than outright forcing a method of gameplay.

    If you have any ideas for incentives, I think those are the least controversial, and can easily be added without a lot of debate. They can also be surprisingly effective.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

  8. #88
    Registered User Tone's Avatar
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    Give Jim Carey a ride on ship and ask him to do commercial for TW

    I let Jim drive for a while, here is how he did:


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    Didn't read the entire thread, but read the first 2 pages. Trying to prevent the scattering of a limited population makes sense and arena integration into pub could lower the barrier for lazy vets like me who just hang around in pub.
    ---


    Now for some thoughts & suggestions of my own:


    Importance of pub:
    This is where players get started. If they have fun here, they may stick around and participate in other activities. Unfortunately, pub isn't as populated anymore, but I think bot automization for flag game is good. There have been in my opinion too many rule and arena layout changes (bot commands, how to buy greens). You learn all these levterr shots, burst spots, jav shots, etc. and then the arena changes and most of it is gone. I don't feel like putting in much of an effort anymore when things keep changing.


    Good modding & healthy environment:
    I've seen racist comments, bad behaviour and teamkilling going on without any repercussions from staff, even when reported. Actions need to have consequences and it is vital to have a healthy, non-toxic environment for the enjoyment of players and to welcome (and not scare off) newcomers. To do this you'd need a working roster of dedicated staff to be present in the game as much as possible.


    Beginners tutorial:
    The game at first, with all the different control keys, commands, chat, ships, arenas and zones can be a bit overwhelming. Kind of like you enter an airliner cockpit for the first time and have to fly the damn thing. Too many buttons, meters and whatnot. A tutorial (either in-game of video/youtube) would go a long way to introducing players to the game step by step, so they don't get put off by the complexity.


    This is in fact a vital mechanism that game developers know very well. Many games introduce you playfully to its mechanics step by step. Gradually you master the game and you feel yourself improving, creating a positive feedback loop.


    Safe tours for newbs:
    Expanding on the tutorial thing: this guy took me on a tour once, his nick was Safe Tours or something similar, terring me around pub arena. He explained stuff in a friendly, interesting way, with fun facts and humor. I don't know if he was invincible, or we just got lucky and didn't get killed, but this would be great to have, especially for newcomers. A welcoming gesture.


    More events/ activities:
    Makes the game feel alive and active and are fun to participate in. Preferably a variety of events, not just zombies…


    Advertise:
    This game could do with a better trailer to spread on social media. The current one has a nice professional looking intro with the logo, but then it doesn't look that attractive. A lot of gamers are obsessed with graphics and you need to get them over the threshold to experience the gameplay.


    I've seen some great looking stuff over the years that would make for a good trailer. Supership duels (unlimited attach), donkey kong event, world wars, special arenas like mario kart, sumo, vortex etc etc and even just regular basing cool moments. Like a high speed lev shot coming in to devastate base/flagroom, a highly skillful jav duel shot/kill, a hunting party getting the LT, terr bullet warp kills, etc.


    Unfortunately I never recorded any footage of that, but I know video-editing and am willing to help out if need be.
    ---


    Final comments:


    I agree that restricting arena is not a good idea. If enough people are active, there's plenty of stuff going on and you can do basing, LTing or LT hunting etc., like in eralier days. Most important thing is an influx of new players and for that you need to lower barriers and get them up to speed. Make sure they have a good experience.


    That said, it may be too late for this game and it'll only dwindle down further.

  10. #90
    Cheese! roxxkatt's Avatar
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    shuffles didnt work in dist either
    The above text is a personal opinion of an individual and is not representative of the statements or opinions of Trench Wars or Trench Wars staff.

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    Last edited by Shaddowknight; Today at 05:49 AM. Reason: Much racism. So hate. Such ban. Wow.

  11. #91
    Registered User terententen's Avatar
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    I've only been back playing for about 6 weeks now after not playing since probably early 99. I'm not sure I even played TW back then but I'll give my 2 cents. I highly doubt I'd still be playing if not for nostalgia; a lot of people are d-bags. The players don't really provide a friendly environment for newcomers.

    As for the gameplay, I'm having a good deal of fun. I'm not sure what the "ideal" TW game is but basing is fun. When you get a half decent team it's fun. When you're on a team that's completely mismatched with tons of experience on 1 side and lots of rust on the other side, it's terrible. I'll enter and if it's ~8-8 i'll get in on action. If it's 3 on 3 I'll sit in spec and wait for people to show because it's nothing but spawn killing when you spawn in the base. If you don't spawn kill, you get killed. Just not fun. But if spectator mode wasn't there, I'd probably just leave and not come back until tomorrow; eventually never. The private frequencies are awful as well. Just get 2 teams and play; why do we need 6v6v1v1v3 etc...? It just makes a crappier experience. The 1s just want to cause chaos. Why do 3 people need to break off? You don't want to play with bad players? If that's the case, if you don't give people time to learn, or better yet, help them, they won't and this place may die. And then those people that just hide and snipe on their solo teams and aren't helping anyone or bringing anything to the table... Lost track of thoughts during GoT. Hope things can turn around here though, I missed a lot of time and this game can be a lot of fun.

  12. #92
    Registered User Tone's Avatar
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    We Could say that Trenchwars was inspired by the battle of Midway in World War II. Most like hero and patriot and good guys won stuff associated with stuff

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  13. #93
    Registered User Tone's Avatar
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    We could always keep the new special buy - items we have now like thors and super and get word out they exist and demonstrate on video


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  14. #94
    zeebu 'DUMPTRUCK' johnson Zeebu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terententen View Post
    I've only been back playing for about 6 weeks now after not playing since probably early 99. I'm not sure I even played TW back then but I'll give my 2 cents. I highly doubt I'd still be playing if not for nostalgia; a lot of people are d-bags. The players don't really provide a friendly environment for newcomers.

    As for the gameplay, I'm having a good deal of fun. I'm not sure what the "ideal" TW game is but basing is fun. When you get a half decent team it's fun. When you're on a team that's completely mismatched with tons of experience on 1 side and lots of rust on the other side, it's terrible. I'll enter and if it's ~8-8 i'll get in on action. If it's 3 on 3 I'll sit in spec and wait for people to show because it's nothing but spawn killing when you spawn in the base. If you don't spawn kill, you get killed. Just not fun. But if spectator mode wasn't there, I'd probably just leave and not come back until tomorrow; eventually never. The private frequencies are awful as well. Just get 2 teams and play; why do we need 6v6v1v1v3 etc...? It just makes a crappier experience. The 1s just want to cause chaos. Why do 3 people need to break off? You don't want to play with bad players? If that's the case, if you don't give people time to learn, or better yet, help them, they won't and this place may die. And then those people that just hide and snipe on their solo teams and aren't helping anyone or bringing anything to the table... Lost track of thoughts during GoT. Hope things can turn around here though, I missed a lot of time and this game can be a lot of fun.
    you would have enjoyed the purepub years

    i enjoyed the purepub years


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  15. #95
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    What if the -$500 penalty for TKing went to the victim(s)?

  16. #96
    Registered User Tone's Avatar
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    Trenchwars must change its image to survive

    it must assert its high class and dignity compared to other games and reiterate that it is a place of civil discourse

    We must appear like the high society elite clique that everyone wants in on, everyone wants to be a part of and feels at home and comfortable within . . . . .


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  17. #97
    Leland
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    Quote Originally Posted by poop View Post
    What if the -$500 penalty for TKing went to the victim(s)?

    yes great idea
    Leland

  18. #98
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    ^ I second the tking penalty going to victim idea
    You're doing something to deal with tking in the absence of moderation.

    Terententen mentioning fun of being on a pub team. To me the spontaneous arisal of a cooperative team that collectively puts its all in to win the round, is one of the most fun things about pub.

    Also, people used to do turret terrs outside of base, spraying spid bullets and lanc spreads. You don't see that anymore. Fun times.

  19. #99
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    drain the swamp
    Quote Originally Posted by jerome
    can we stop and wonder in amazement at the fact that we play a VIDEO GAME that has "generations"???

  20. #100
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    drain the swamp
    Yeah, but there's no military industrial complex money here to make worth it to pull at the teat. Many things proposed require work. In many cases, bot work. At the moment that's mostly "shit qan should do." (Though definitely some other people have shown interest.) But I'm one guy and do other things with my life. I'm also getting RSI in my right wrist because I'm utterly addicted to computers.

    Some of the things that have been proposed can be done by just about anyone, such as new player initiatives. Some of the things are simple policy issues, where if the majority agreed to do something (such as ban private freqs) we could agree. But that's all hardly unanimous. For example, there are very vocal people who build their TW identity around playing on a private freq. Also, a core TW value seems to be freedom of choice ... to allow maximal freedom within the confines of what allows the zone to stay alive. The balance always tilts between the opposing values of liberty vs authority, and where we draw the line is always up for debate. But ideally, we should try and operate from relative consensus. Most of the time on features or policy I have never stuck to my guns. If most of the community says it needs to change, it should change, obviously. (Well, and to be fair -- IF it's easy enough to implement. You can easily spend more time working on or coding for TW in a week than a regular full time job if you wanted to. I once quit my job and lived off my savings to code for TW. Of course, being a lazy bastard also had something to do with that, but it was a great time, too.)

    I've been reading zone suggestions for a little over 10 years now, with different degrees of ability to effect those changes. (Oooh, effect as verb, yeah, I took that shot that killed Kennedy) Happy to put in anything the community clearly wants, but if it needs code, we've got to get the code for it, right? Who's going to do it? I'll do what I can with the limited time I have, but I could use help. For example, someone want to put elim or wbduel/javduel in pub? I've got a way to do it but not the interest to take several weeks to code it off and on, maybe a couple months. If you have the will to complete it and you feel you are a competent coder, please talk to me and I can help you get started.

    By the way, there's a nice site I ran across at a conference, lets you vote up ideas ... jesus, took 10 minutes of searching. https://www.allourideas.org Could use something like this to figure out zone priorities. If anyone would participate... not sure if there's real interest, or if it's more satisfying to hold onto a feeling of righteous indigantion, Jonesy
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
    -Dostoevsky's Crime and Punishment

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