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Thread: Pub Tuning 2017 #1 - Levis - Request For Comments

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  1. #1
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Pub Tuning 2017 #1 - Levis - Request For Comments

    Hey folks. Here we are with another year of the spaceship game. We're constantly trying to keep the game adapting without changing too much of the core gameplay ... a delicate balance. I have some pub ideas I want to float past you. First is the Levi.


    Current status
    It's been about a year now since Levis have had L3 bombs, at the cost of 1/3 of their energy. I think most people agree that they're still deadly in the right hands, though, and that they can pose a serious threat to the livelihood of pub if players don't actively try to hunt them. Even hunting them can cause a flag game to dwindle, though, and arguably the flag game's at the core of pub.


    Then vs Now
    In the past, Levis had a much harder time greening because pub was in general more active in the spawn area. It was not easy to get to a safe, and even if you did, sometimes a weasel would be waiting for you to ruin your day in a highly comical fashion. Now LT teams are much more sophisticated, often with years of experience under their belts. Getting to safe rarely takes more than 1 or 2 deaths, and as we all know, once you make it to safe, you're nearly as good as attached. In the past, spawnkilling was a significant enough mitigating factor of Levi destruction. That's not the case anymore, especially when there are few players online, and a skilled LT can cause much of the arena to ragequit/spec.


    Tweak Ideas
    To compensate, we can go in a few directions. I have a few ideas to rework the Levi further into the Glass Cannon/squishy model (high damage + high risk of death if an error is made -- essentially, gearing toward it being a high skill cap/high learning curve ship).


    #1) -Energy, -recharge, -bomb fire cost, -bullet fire cost
    I'd like to try them with half the energy and recharge they have now, but also half the fire cost for bombs and bullets. Essentially, everything would be miniaturized in proportion to energy. It would feel exactly the same as it does now in terms of how often you can fire and how long it takes to recharge from 0 to full. This means Levis could be 1-shot by Lancs, and if not at absolute 100% energy, 1-shot even by Spiders and Terrs. It would also make Javs a much greater risk for them, as well as TKs from other Levis on an LT. This does provide a disadvantage for solo Levs, of course. But keep in mind that no disadvantage was so great as having L2 bombs! And that most ships are still able to basically 1-shot Levs already, so that it's more what's in their bag of tricks (reps, rocket, port, well-timed bullets/bombs) that can keep them alive anyhow. Mainly this change would help Spiders and Terrs... And they're underplayed as it is, so incentivizing them isn't a bad thing.


    #2) Shared Greens/Attach Limit
    The other move is to either reduce shared greens or to raise the attach limit. We could place shared greens at 10, 5, or even 0 (few people eat their greens for Levis' sake anymore, anyhow, as many are just TK factories). Or we could raise the attach limit to 25 or even 30. Both have roughly the same effect, which is to make it more difficult for a Levi to be able to attach. Raising the attach limit mostly means more grinding killing your friendly freq-switched terr after you make it to safe, whereas lowering the shared greens also means you won't receive as many tool refreshes or random full charges, and might not be as annoying overall for LTs. Shared green lowering does disadvantage solo Levis, but only those on public freqs. However, these are some of the worst and most annoying offenders for TKs. It may not be a bad thing to make it harder for them to survive long enough to get to the top of lower base, where they can then fire bombs at the base entrance while their freq is attacking.


    #3) Bomb speed
    Lastly, we can reduce bomb speed very slightly. This has the advantage of making it easier to guess when a bomb is about to pop the base, and means fewer TKs as well. Terrs can compensate for lack of speed by making moving shots. This has the effect of deincentivizing standing shots, which are currently the most common Levi shots, and require skill on the part of the Terr to set up but not much on the part of the Levi.


    Final point: L3 vs L2
    L3 bombs are difficult to balance in this day and age. We could go back to L2, but that seems to completely destroy the idea of what the Levi is. While not out of the question, I'd like to do everything we can to avoid having to go back down that road.
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    Permanent pure pub or go home

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    Major Crisis/Ownix Major Crisis's Avatar
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    Close the safes. No point in having them anyway. Would make it little harder for private freqs to green too. Besides that the shared greens/attach limit should change indeed.
    Major Crisis

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    Yeah I already said just chop the bottom half off the map.

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    ` Jones's Avatar
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    Question

    Thanks qan for the time you put into this. However, the ship is by design not suitable for the basing aspect and no amount of tweaking (while keeping it "close" to its true settings) will get the job done.

    The question you should ask the community is: In what direction do you want pub to go? Basing or FFA doing whatever they want.
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    Leland
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    give the Lancasters more bullets or more energy
    Leland

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    Quote Originally Posted by qan View Post

    #1) -Energy, -recharge, -bomb fire cost, -bullet fire cost
    I'd like to try them with half the energy and recharge they have now, but also half the fire cost for bombs and bullets. Essentially, everything would be miniaturized in proportion to energy. It would feel exactly the same as it does now in terms of how often you can fire and how long it takes to recharge from 0 to full. This means Levis could be 1-shot by Lancs, and if not at absolute 100% energy, 1-shot even by Spiders and Terrs. It would also make Javs a much greater risk for them, as well as TKs from other Levis on an LT. This does provide a disadvantage for solo Levs, of course. But keep in mind that no disadvantage was so great as having L2 bombs! And that most ships are still able to basically 1-shot Levs already, so that it's more what's in their bag of tricks (reps, rocket, port, well-timed bullets/bombs) that can keep them alive anyhow. Mainly this change would help Spiders and Terrs... And they're underplayed as it is, so incentivizing them isn't a bad thing.
    I like this idea *a lot*. Remove all of its items, as well, bar 1 rep.
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    I couldn't possibly disagree more. If you do the above, you'll make lev only useful in an LT but will not have mitigated any of the issues that make LTs annoying. That's entirely the wrong approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellmouth View Post
    I couldn't possibly disagree more. If you do the above, you'll make lev only useful in an LT but will not have mitigated any of the issues that make LTs annoying. That's entirely the wrong approach.
    This

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    Qan, how difficult would it be to implement a rule which kicks a lev out of LT after a minute with 0 energy? The !buy idea sucks IMO because it means levs effectively can't base.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hellmouth View Post
    Qan, how difficult would it be to implement a rule which kicks a lev out of LT after a minute with 0 energy? The !buy idea sucks IMO because it means levs effectively can't base.
    .... -1
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    Qan, how difficult would it be to implement a rule which kicks a lev out of LT after a minute with 0 energy? The !buy idea sucks IMO because it means levs effectively can't base.

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    Let's have a trial run of free pure pub and see how it does.

    If us basing purists have to buy a pure pub, consider ways the basing saboteurs have to pay as well (i.e. having to buy the ability to allow a levi to attach).

    Having to buy a private frequency is a good idea, but at times we find ourselves starting a new frequency to save a derailed basing game.

    I like the idea of increasing the attach limit for levis. I also like the idea of tweaking it towards even more of a glass cannon.

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    Increasing the attach limit is just as stupid as making the lev 'glass'. People who seriously LT just have the lev kill the terr to charge up. None of those suggestions change that. What needs to happen is just what I said above.

    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by San Tokie View Post
    consider ways the basing saboteurs have to pay as well (i.e. having to buy the ability to allow a levi to attach).
    I AGREE WITH THIS

    Quote Originally Posted by San Tokie View Post
    Having to buy a private frequency is a good idea, but at times we find ourselves starting a new frequency to save a derailed basing game.
    I disagree with the part in bold but mainly because of the part not in bold.
    Also

    +1
    3:kyler> who r u btw i keep wanting to ask people "who is 45th pres" but someone gonna say "trump"
    3:45th President> do it
    kyler> who is 45th President
    nah> donald j trump

    Downfall> Shoutout to forwards for randomly giving gunsmith results that made no sense and just made things harder

    Jacklyn> holster is the thing that holds/carry the gun

  16. #16
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    The idea of having Levis pay to attach is a pretty interesting one. How would it work? The easiest would be to just subtract a certain amount every time they attach... very very easy to add. But the amount would need to be somewhat low, probably between $100-$1000, or else it could make someone broke quite quickly, and maybe without them noticing. (However, most LTers are experienced members of the zone and do have sizeable stacks of spaceshekels.)


    Slightly harder to implement (and probably much more annoying for Levis) would be to !buy an attach privilege. This wouldn't run the risk of causing accidental purchase. But also makes it much harder to plan for attaching. Getting to 20 bounty and then having to do a !buy just to attach is pretty awkward.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qan View Post
    it could make someone broke quite quickly, and maybe without them noticing. (However, most LTers are experienced members of the zone and do have sizeable stacks of spaceshekels.)
    I think this was the point. lol
    Also shekel = Israel currency

    Quote Originally Posted by qan View Post
    Slightly harder to implement
    This I'm against
    Quote Originally Posted by qan View Post
    and probably much more annoying for Levis
    THIS I SUPPORT
    3:kyler> who r u btw i keep wanting to ask people "who is 45th pres" but someone gonna say "trump"
    3:45th President> do it
    kyler> who is 45th President
    nah> donald j trump

    Downfall> Shoutout to forwards for randomly giving gunsmith results that made no sense and just made things harder

    Jacklyn> holster is the thing that holds/carry the gun

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    With regard to the cost of attaching as a lev, why not keep the price of pure pub in the same ballpark?

    Better yet, what if the levi terr players had to buy their own pub instead?

    What about taking away the lev's ability to attach altogether?

    Or taking away a Terrier's warp capability when a lev is attached. Perhaps also taking away the lev's ability to warp in general.

    What if the levi was an actual suicide bomber? Or if it only had one L3 bomb and then it downgrades to L2?
    Last edited by San Tokie; 01-24-2017 at 04:38 PM. Reason: I forgot to address something

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    Can we make it so that a Terrier is slowed down when a lev is attached? What about an energy cut like when you turn on x-radar?

  20. #20
    give life, take death qan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by San Tokie View Post
    With regard to the cost of attaching as a lev, why not keep the price of pure pub in the same ballpark? Better yet, what if the levi terr players had to buy their own pub instead? What about taking away the lev's ability to attach altogether? Or taking away a Terrier's warp capability when a lev is attached. Perhaps also taking away the lev's ability to warp in general. What if the levi was an actual suicide bomber? Or if it only had one L3 bomb and then it downgrades to L2?
    I think making it cost over $100K to attach as a Lev is pretty over the top. Also, if LTs bought their own pub, they'd just go there and not have anyone to play with. In other words, it would never be purchased, and would be as good as permanent pure pub. Disabling attaching of Levis altogether would mean no LTs, which are part of the zone, whether or not you like them.

    Taking away a Terr's ability to port when a Levi attaches would be interesting. However, there's no good way to do it, as any smart Terr would just lay a port before a Levi attaches.

    Having 1 L3 bomb and then it degrading to L2 after 1 shot would be sort of costly to implement. It means monitoring every weapon fired, which currently we don't do in pub.

    Having to buy L3 bombs has been discussed before. This might be an interesting option. Anyone have any thoughts on that? An interesting twist would mean that an LT would have to get into mid to a buy zone to be able to make the purchase. If we did this it'd be best to keep cost fairly low -- maybe around $1K-5K -- as otherwise it would disproportionately affect new and/or poor players. The main idea would be to make it difficult to get L3, but still have it available as an option. We could even make it free, but just restrict it to the buy zone. Or require a Levi to touch the flag to get L3, or reach some other area.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellmouth View Post
    Qan, how difficult would it be to implement a rule which kicks a lev out of LT after a minute with 0 energy? The !buy idea sucks IMO because it means levs effectively can't base.
    Ah, just realized, there's no way to initiate a detach except from the player's side (in TW, at least; think it can be done on ASSS zones) anyhow. So at best it would be a series of negative prizes that would keep firing until the Levi detached. Possibly an LT could buy an "attach pass" which would let them attach as a Levi for the next 30 minutes, something like that. And if they didn't have such a pass, it would let them attach, but then after X amount of time, would begin firing the negative prizes at them, which would ensure they couldn't fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by San Tokie View Post
    Can we make it so that a Terrier is slowed down when a lev is attached? What about an energy cut like when you turn on x-radar?
    Can't be done except across the board ... that is, regardless of the ship type, Terr would slow down. Not useful/breaks the game, as it would modify how Terrs work generally. Energy cut's not possible either, except maybe in a very convoluted way. Hm, might be able to do it with prizes, using a negative amount for EnergyUpgrade. It'd be a big hack though, and likely buggy.
    "You're a gentleman," they used to say to him. "You shouldn't have gone murdering people with a hatchet; that's no occupation for a gentleman."
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